Problem getting aligned after TBJs, Spohn Uppers, Drop spindles and Z87 springs

I finished lowering my blazer with Z87 springs (blazer X) that dropped it 1.5", Belltech 2102 spindles, tall upper and lower ball joints, and Spohn upper arms. It came out to a total 4.0" drop in the front.

I placed all the factory alignment shims (about 3-5 in varying thicknesses)  back in the exact places I found them. got the toe as close as possible and drove to the alignment shop.

specs immediately after lowering
L/R +1.4°/+1.0° camber
L/R +7.8°/+8.9° caster

the alignment guy immediately told me he thought something was wrong, that maybe I had installed the arms on the wrong sides. He stated that if he brought the camber down to 0 or slightly negative, that the caster would continue to gain. I went home and double checked my installation and even called Spohn, the arms are installed correctly, as is everything else. Spohn wasn't able to help me any further than that, they said no one has every had a problem.

The next day the alignment guy went ahead and tried to align it. As he expected the caster went up.
L/R -0.1°/-0.2° camber
L/R +8.4°/+9.0° caster

The oem specs for the Blazer X are L +3.7° to +5.7° and R +4.2° to +6.2°

so overall I'm about 2.75° out of spec on the caster.

Is there anything wrong with this? my understanding is that the tires will wear just fine, however it will make it slightly more hard to turn (it is noticeable but I have no problem with it, its still power steering after all). What effect does this have on the handling? 

I did notice that the steering column on the freeway in a straight line seems unloaded and the wheel will rattle back and forth a bit. I believe the rag joint is going bad (do they go bad with age? cause the blazer only has 68k miles) on the steering column, but after lowering and the higher caster, it rattles back and forth more than usual.

Basically do I need to find another alignment guy, different arms, or just leave it be?

Running a lot of caster is usually considered fine, I think it's used as a band-aid for some of the problems inherent with old suspension designs like ours. Aftermarket control arms often have additional caster built into them. I don't know where 'a lot' stops and 'too much' starts though.

It wont cause you to wear tires any faster than normal. It will simply give more aggressive camber roll. The only thing to consider is if the ball joints are binding at all. If they aren't, let it ride. For what it's worth, I run about +9 degrees of caster on my autocross truck that I also drive on the street.

thanks. There is no binding. I've been driving it cautiously and it seems to drive fine, i haven't really gotten into a fast corner yet.

What I did notice is this, prior to lowering the truck there was a slight rocking back and forth rattle in the steering column when on the freeway in a straight line every now and then (if there was no load on the steering components). I assume this is the sign of a bad rag joint? I've never had one go bad but I've heard it's a common problem. Wasn't expecting it at 68k miles but then again it's still a 16 year-old vehicle. Now after lowering it, the rocking and rattle on the freeway in a straight line has gotten even worse. I figure with the addition caster the steering components have even less of a load on them in a high speed straight line. before it was a random occasional rattle. Now it's most of the time on the freeway, so either the caster needs to get fixed or i need to find a jeep shaft to replace the stock unit.

It wont cause you to wear tires any faster than normal. It will simply give more aggressive camber roll. The only thing to consider is if the ball joints are binding at all. If they aren't, let it ride. For what it's worth, I run about +9 degrees of caster on my autocross truck that I also drive on the street.

also i assume you are at -1 to 0 on the camber, how did you manage to get +9 caster? We're talking about an s10 right? what setup do you have?

I'd love to be able to stay 0 or less on the camber and bring my caster down to +6 but from what i've been told it seems that as i bring the caster down the camber will start to go positive which is even more undesirable than the extra caster.

What alignment spec are you trying for?

I've been doing 0.5-1 negative camber and 5-6 positive caster on my handling builds. It can be at the extent of the setup, but always been able to get it.

Are your uppers shorter or designed for a tall ball joint setup? It's been my understanding the tall upper really needs the shorter arm and that's my first suspect with your issue.

I've been using the moog offset cross shafts on the factory uppers when using a tall LBJ to help with the alignment. It might help you too, but not sure what your cross shaft is currently.

I've been having the same loose steering feel as you on my Blazer and it's definitely the steering box for me. That's likely another source ontop of the rag joint.

Jason,

I was looking to get the same specs you have for handling.

No these uppers are not specifically designed for TBJ, I suspect this may be the problem. I'm not how I'd know if they are shorter or longer arms?

Can you use the factory uppers when just doing the tall lower ball joint? is it the tall upper ball joint that requires tubular arms?

I'm interested in your setup, are you just running tall lowers with the stock upper control arms and moog offset cross shafts (do you happen to know a part number)? am I correct in my understanding that the tall upper helps more geometry/handling wise than the tall lower, and that the tall lower is what lowers the truck 1/2"?

I'm wondering if the offset cross shafts could help me get these spohn arms into a better alignment spec? Or maybe I'll ditch the Spohn arms for a setup like yours? My blazer is not getting built up beyond a nice daily driver, my sonomas are the ones where i'm looking to go further in the builds. The blazer doesn't necessarily need the tall upper or tubular arms, but I do like that the lower helped get me an extra 1/2" since my z87 springs were only good for 1.5" of drop.

I inspected the rag joint while I was lowering it, it didn't seem to look bad, and there wasn't really any play with it.  I guess that would be a good time to upgrade to a ZQ8 box. But man only 68k miles on the blazer, surely a steering box can't go bad that fast, or simply from age?

It wont cause you to wear tires any faster than normal. It will simply give more aggressive camber roll. The only thing to consider is if the ball joints are binding at all. If they aren't, let it ride. For what it's worth, I run about +9 degrees of caster on my autocross truck that I also drive on the street.

also i assume you are at -1 to 0 on the camber, how did you manage to get +9 caster? We're talking about an s10 right? what setup do you have?

I'd love to be able to stay 0 or less on the camber and bring my caster down to +6 but from what i've been told it seems that as i bring the caster down the camber will start to go positive which is even more undesirable than the extra caster.

Well...actually I'm at -2.8 degrees of camber. Haha! It is a 2000 regular cab short box S10. I have stock lower control arms with poly bushings, +1" lower ball joint, +.5" upper ball joint, 2" lowering spindles, speedway tubular arms (the short ones, 8" if I remember correctly), stock coil springs, Belltech SP shocks.

I'd second the suggestion that those arms you have may not be fit for extended length ball joints. With the way these trucks are set up, you can adjust caster and camber semi-independantly. Adjusting one does effect the other, but you can adjust them together to achieve more negative camber and less caster if that's what you desire.

Jason,

I was looking to get the same specs you have for handling.

No these uppers are not specifically designed for TBJ, I suspect this may be the problem. I'm not how I'd know if they are shorter or longer arms?

Can you use the factory uppers when just doing the tall lower ball joint? is it the tall upper ball joint that requires tubular arms?

I'm interested in your setup, are you just running tall lowers with the stock upper control arms and moog offset cross shafts (do you happen to know a part number)? am I correct in my understanding that the tall upper helps more geometry/handling wise than the tall lower, and that the tall lower is what lowers the truck 1/2"?

I'm wondering if the offset cross shafts could help me get these spohn arms into a better alignment spec? Or maybe I'll ditch the Spohn arms for a setup like yours? My blazer is not getting built up beyond a nice daily driver, my sonomas are the ones where i'm looking to go further in the builds. The blazer doesn't necessarily need the tall upper or tubular arms, but I do like that the lower helped get me an extra 1/2" since my z87 springs were only good for 1.5" of drop.

I inspected the rag joint while I was lowering it, it didn't seem to look bad, and there wasn't really any play with it.  I guess that would be a good time to upgrade to a ZQ8 box. But man only 68k miles on the blazer, surely a steering box can't go bad that fast, or simply from age?

You can use stock upper arm but you do not reap the full benefits of extended length ball joints with stock arms. The concept of making the geometry better works best as a package. Each piece does it's part, but ultimately it all works best together. The shorter arms help to get a better static alignment, which is what you are struggling with, but they also give a quicker rate of camber gain during suspension compression, which is also the reason for extended length ball joints to begin with. Tall upper and lower ball joints both help equally with geometry related to camber gain and other geometry aspects, and as an added bonus, the lower ball joint lowers the truck and helps correct bump steer issues. If Spohn makes and offset shaft, that could help you out, but a shorter arm would help more. I do suspect that the shake in the wheel is now just exacerbated by the new geometry, including caster. Have you checked the balance on the wheels? The shake could be from a out of balance tire that now feels worse if the direction it is out of balance is now more in line with the caster angle. I wouldn't think the rag joint or box would be worn with that few miles, but if stored poorly at some time, the rag joint could have deteriorated rapidly at some point.

The rattle happened with the stock 235/70/15 tires and wheels and is now happening with new aftermarket 245/45/18 tires and wheels, so I'm going to rule out wheel balance as the odds of both being out of balance is unlikely, plus the 18s are new and freshly mounted/balanced. Also it's only in a straight line when the steering is unloaded. The blazer doesn't drift left or right, just the wheel shakes and gives a rattle that sounds like it's in the the steering column.

Interesting. What is your toe in set at? It does sound like it could point to a worn component somewhere in the steering system like you suggested.

Jason,

I was looking to get the same specs you have for handling.

No these uppers are not specifically designed for TBJ, I suspect this may be the problem. I'm not how I'd know if they are shorter or longer arms?

Can you use the factory uppers when just doing the tall lower ball joint? is it the tall upper ball joint that requires tubular arms?

I'm interested in your setup, are you just running tall lowers with the stock upper control arms and moog offset cross shafts (do you happen to know a part number)? am I correct in my understanding that the tall upper helps more geometry/handling wise than the tall lower, and that the tall lower is what lowers the truck 1/2"?

I'm wondering if the offset cross shafts could help me get these spohn arms into a better alignment spec? Or maybe I'll ditch the Spohn arms for a setup like yours? My blazer is not getting built up beyond a nice daily driver, my sonomas are the ones where i'm looking to go further in the builds. The blazer doesn't necessarily need the tall upper or tubular arms, but I do like that the lower helped get me an extra 1/2" since my z87 springs were only good for 1.5" of drop.

I inspected the rag joint while I was lowering it, it didn't seem to look bad, and there wasn't really any play with it.  I guess that would be a good time to upgrade to a ZQ8 box. But man only 68k miles on the blazer, surely a steering box can't go bad that fast, or simply from age?

I've done 2 different setups now.

My street setup, which I've posted around here and S10 forum a bit, I had on my Isuzu Hombre, which I sold awhile back.

Stock Control arms
Replacement Rubber Bushings
ZQ8 Springs (or Z87 on a Blazer like yours)
Tall LBJ
Stock UBJ
Offset Crossshafts
-0.5/+5.5/Slight Toe In for alignment.

On the Blazer I added in coilovers with 650 lb springs, Tubular LCA, Tubular Short Upper from UB Machine, and a tall upper ball joint. Pretty much the same alignment specs as I immediately took it out and put 10k+ miles on the truck in just over a month. More camber wouldn't be bad for the track.

So to answer your question, I haven't run a tall UBJ without a shorter UCA. autox did a good job going over the geometry gains of both, so I won't go into depth. You'll have really good results for a street setup with a stock upper arm and ball joint, but if you want to get the most out of the chassis go with both the tall UBJ and a short arm at the same time. I don't think the offset cross shaft is enough by itself. I used it on my street setup to help with static alignment without running out of shims, but yours sounds further off than I would have been.

Moog K6218 is the cross shaft. I do not believe they even sell a non-offset version for the S10.

As a point of reference to steering boxes wearing out. My rebuilt unit became sloppy within 1000 miles of installation.  If you're not seeing slop in your original box leave it alone, but I haven't had good experience with either original or chain store rebuilt boxes. I have some leads on a couple places within a couple hours of me that may rebuild these, still, but have had other priorities to fix on the truck first.

It wont cause you to wear tires any faster than normal. It will simply give more aggressive camber roll. The only thing to consider is if the ball joints are binding at all. If they aren't, let it ride. For what it's worth, I run about +9 degrees of caster on my autocross truck that I also drive on the street.

also i assume you are at -1 to 0 on the camber, how did you manage to get +9 caster? We're talking about an s10 right? what setup do you have?

I'd love to be able to stay 0 or less on the camber and bring my caster down to +6 but from what i've been told it seems that as i bring the caster down the camber will start to go positive which is even more undesirable than the extra caster.

Well...actually I'm at -2.8 degrees of camber. Haha! It is a 2000 regular cab short box S10. I have stock lower control arms with poly bushings, +1" lower ball joint, +.5" upper ball joint, 2" lowering spindles, speedway tubular arms (the short ones, 8" if I remember correctly), stock coil springs, Belltech SP shocks.

I'd second the suggestion that those arms you have may not be fit for extended length ball joints. With the way these trucks are set up, you can adjust caster and camber semi-independantly. Adjusting one does effect the other, but you can adjust them together to achieve more negative camber and less caster if that's what you desire.

9* of caster?  Damn!

Did you do anything for tire-rod clearance?  Before I aligned my truck, I had +/- 10* caster and found that the tie rods would come in contact with the frame (ZQ8 spring, 0.5" upper/lower ball joints, SPC arms).  Dropped the caster down to 6.5 and gained plenty of clearance...

It wont cause you to wear tires any faster than normal. It will simply give more aggressive camber roll. The only thing to consider is if the ball joints are binding at all. If they aren't, let it ride. For what it's worth, I run about +9 degrees of caster on my autocross truck that I also drive on the street.

also i assume you are at -1 to 0 on the camber, how did you manage to get +9 caster? We're talking about an s10 right? what setup do you have?

I'd love to be able to stay 0 or less on the camber and bring my caster down to +6 but from what i've been told it seems that as i bring the caster down the camber will start to go positive which is even more undesirable than the extra caster.

Well...actually I'm at -2.8 degrees of camber. Haha! It is a 2000 regular cab short box S10. I have stock lower control arms with poly bushings, +1" lower ball joint, +.5" upper ball joint, 2" lowering spindles, speedway tubular arms (the short ones, 8" if I remember correctly), stock coil springs, Belltech SP shocks.

I'd second the suggestion that those arms you have may not be fit for extended length ball joints. With the way these trucks are set up, you can adjust caster and camber semi-independantly. Adjusting one does effect the other, but you can adjust them together to achieve more negative camber and less caster if that's what you desire.

9* of caster?  Damn!

Did you do anything for tire-rod clearance?  Before I aligned my truck, I had +/- 10* caster and found that the tie rods would come in contact with the frame (ZQ8 spring, 0.5" upper/lower ball joints, SPC arms).  Dropped the caster down to 6.5 and gained plenty of clearance...

I haven't had any issues with tie rod clearance with the frame. Probably because I still use my stock base model spring and a +1" lower ball joint vs the zq8 spring and +.5" lbj. I do have a little bit of frame to control arm clearance at full droop, but I'll be doing some clearancing on the frame to take care of that.

I'll start a separate thread (don't want to hijack this one) but just wanted to mention that I'm also struggling with what seems like a very similar issue.

Front suspension do-over effort outcome: too much positive caster... struggling with how to reduce the caster value down to the 6-deg range.

In my case UMI suggested I may have the UCAs swapped (on the wrong sides), but I confirmed they are correctly installed.

I'll keep watching this thread to see how you make out.  Will start my own too.

Darren


Details:
03 S-10 RCSB ZQ8, 4.3, 5-spd
UMI 3832-1 LCA with 0.5 inch taller LBJ
UMI 3056-2 Adjustable UCA with 0.5 inch taller UBJ
oem Blazer 2WD Front Spindles with sealed bearings
Landrum 700 lb springs (12 inch free length) with 0.5 inch Belltech Spacer on top

I posted in your thread too, but will post here as well to wrap up this thread.

I ended up removing the Spohn upper arms and switching to UMI arms (the non adjustable ones) that are sold with 0.5" TBJs.

In doing so I was able to achieve -0.125° camber and 6.5/7.0° castor. Ideally I would have liked -0.5° camber, but that would have pushed me over 7.0° castor