Too much roll? Race pics

Looking for some analysis of my suspension based on race pics. Do you guys think there is too much roll in the rear or does it look balanced with the front? I'm still not running a rear swaybar but had the shocks at their stiffest setting. Traction was better with the softer rear leafs, even without the weight of a hitch and spare tire. It looks like I could still use more camber as well. Thoughts?









(thanks to Paige Milligan for the pics)

You're definitely getting a lot of roll overall, but front and rear look pretty good compared to each other, I would say a little less in the rear, which is entirely normal. You have ZQ8 front bar in already?

Thanks for the input. I do have a ZQ8 front bar, poly bushings, and shortened end links. I had my front shocks full stiff as well so I'm not sure there's much else I can do to decrease roll up front other than a custom swaybar. The grip felt awesome on course and it seemed planted but it's clearly still rolling. It was a concrete surface and with 100 treadware tires the G loads were probably pretty high - it was definitely a lot more grip than I'm used to. One of the stock class Toyota Celicas was holding over 1 G for 2-3 seconds at a time on 200 treadware 'street' tires.

to me it looks like you need a lot more front bar and a lot more static camber

Can't say for sure on the camber, haven't watched the video to see if we can see the actual camber curve in action, but definitely need more front bar or less front weight.

Found some good comparison pics, all from the same turn. The bullitt and the M3 are both in SM so highly modified and on full slicks. The other cars are on DOT race tires or at max 200 treadware. Definitely a lot of roll in comparison. I'm surprised because it rolls this much because relative to what it was stock it feels rock solid. Any suggestions for reducing front roll other than a custom swaybar? I will add more static camber for sure.

i disagree with using shocks to try to force less roll, but thats a different topic.
you can try to jack the roll center up but that's probably not the best bandaid.

why are you against a custom bar? the S10 has a fair amount of room to make pretty much anything work.

I'm not against a custom bar at all, I'm just worried about cost and my lack of engineering skills to make it work. The shocks are certainly a band-aid but on a smooth concrete runway it helps. I looked into a splined bar at some point, I should pick that up again.

I'd say stiffer front springs would help. The ZQ8 bar is plenty big.

I'd say stiffer front springs would help. The ZQ8 bar is plenty big.

I completely disagree actually, bar diameter isn't everything. We've got LONG arms on the front bars which really ruin it.

If you go to a splined bar, move it back as well, as far as you can without getting into the steering. I don't have hard numbers at hand, but any movement of the bar to the rear will help with springrate in roll.

I also don't agree increasing springs, reducing weight makes a much bigger, better difference than increasing springrate. That said, one a completely stock V6 truck, most of the drop springs will lower you further, by being softer. Going to coil overs is extremely expensive, but you can do 5.5x11" springs in 50lb increments without going custom and then use a spring adjuster to set your height. Should be able to get anywhere from 500lb to 1300lb/in springs, so corner weigh your truck and lets see if we can get you into a stiffer spring without RUINING your ride comfort. The adjustable shocks will go a long way on that front thankfully.

Great discussion guys. I'm having trouble finding a simple, universal splined setup that isn't meant for an oval track car. I did contact Addco about a custom tubular bar in 1.5". They make a 1.5" for the 4x4 and so maybe they can just use their 2wd bar as a template for the 1.5". I'll let you know and maybe even try to start a group buy if the price is reasonable. It would be a whopping step from 33 to 38 mm but I don't think they offer anything in between the 2 sizes.

Stock height springs are in the 700-750lb/in range so I'm sure you could use a stiffer spring without killing ride quality. I'm still running stock ZQ8 springs which are rated a 535. They handle good on the street but feel pretty soft when autoxing. I would like to try a stiffer spring, but just got tired of messing with my suspension.

As far as the sway bar, if you did a custom one you can't move it back at all unless you modified the steering linkage. The ZQ8 bar has barely any clearance with the idler arm as is. I'd be interested in seeing how a larger front bar would work out though. But it would likely actually be needed to moved ahead for idler arm clearance, and (depending on how it's shaped) limit the turning radius even more.

When I bought the 550# springs for the QA1 coilovers that was the heaviest they sold  - they've since made a 650. The 550's aren't bottoming out on themselves, there's no evidence that the coils are rubbing on each other like I saw with the 450# springs QA1 actually recommends for V8 swapped trucks. I'm tired of messing with them after 3 spring swaps so I'm probably just going to leave them. I have 200 pounds cut from the truck and the battery is in the bed so I may be OK with the lower spring rate.

Still waiting to hear back from Addco. If I don't hear from them soon I'll call so they know that I'm actually serious about the custom bar. I haven't checked clearances closely but I'm not too worried about the tires touching it, right now I can go to full lock on a 275 wide tire and I can still move my wheels out and maintain fender clearance.

You might wanna try experimenting and put the rear sway bar back on for an event, and see how it affects the roll. I think it would really help since you're using softer leafs now. If you do put it back on, one thing I've found is it's better to use rubber bushings/end links for the rear bar rather the polyurethane. With the poly bushings the rear would bind up to easy, lifting the inside wheel off the ground on hard corners. It killed traction coming out of corners.

Great discussion guys. I'm having trouble finding a simple, universal splined setup that isn't meant for an oval track car. I did contact Addco about a custom tubular bar in 1.5". They make a 1.5" for the 4x4 and so maybe they can just use their 2wd bar as a template for the 1.5". I'll let you know and maybe even try to start a group buy if the price is reasonable. It would be a whopping step from 33 to 38 mm but I don't think they offer anything in between the 2 sizes.

Check tubing size, depending on wall thickness it may be larger OD, but actually lower spring rate. 1.5" solid would be a hell of a bar!

You can use oval track spline bars, take a bit of tweaking on the mounts so that they are perfectly inline, they a set of steel arms bent spec, a heim at the arm to a bolt up from the bottom with stock style bushings and cut tube should get the job done nicely.

As far as the sway bar, if you did a custom one you can't move it back at all unless you modified the steering linkage. The ZQ8 bar has barely any clearance with the idler arm as is. I'd be interested in seeing how a larger front bar would work out though. But it would likely actually be needed to moved ahead for idler arm clearance, and (depending on how it's shaped) limit the turning radius even more.

If it's a custom bar, you can add idler arm clearance in the bends and move the mounting point back, creating shorter arms, increasing spring rate.

Definitely too much roll and it appears too little camber.

We run the 1.33" front sway bar (with poly bushings) and a blazer rear sway bar. The cage definitely helps too We also have cut front springs which stiffened everything up quite nicely. We are looking to ditch the rear sway bar because it limits travel. Eventually, we are going to truck arms to get rid of the leaf spring silliness altogether.

Note: The pic is T5 at Road Atlanta at 75mph or so.

Maybe the rear bar would help limit some of the roll, I'll give it a shot. I worry about loss of traction on corner exits though, that's why I haven't been running it.

I have poly bushings on my front bar, shortened end links, and have the poly end link bushings cut down to the bare minimum needed to allow some articulation. I couldn't figure out a u-joint end link because the mounts on my LCAs don't line up well with the sway bar ends.

The splined circle track bars I've seen have a snubber on one side so the bar only controls roll in one direction. I'll continue the hunt.

Great looking truck TacomaJPP. Looks like you're running fairly narrow tires - what size are they? I imagine that truck is quite a bit lighter than mine so maybe that also contributes to limiting roll. I'd be surprised if mine was less than 3400 lbs.

Anyone remember where the discussion about dual front swaybars is? I thought someone brought it up here but it may have been lost in one of the forum migrations.

It seems/is ghetto but there are quite a few references to it on the interwebs, particularly on the turbo volvo forums.

Thoughts? Too ghetto to even consider?! 

Maybe the rear bar would help limit some of the roll, I'll give it a shot. I worry about loss of traction on corner exits though, that's why I haven't been running it.

I have poly bushings on my front bar, shortened end links, and have the poly end link bushings cut down to the bare minimum needed to allow some articulation. I couldn't figure out a u-joint end link because the mounts on my LCAs don't line up well with the sway bar ends.

The splined circle track bars I've seen have a snubber on one side so the bar only controls roll in one direction. I'll continue the hunt.

Great looking truck TacomaJPP. Looks like you're running fairly narrow tires - what size are they? I imagine that truck is quite a bit lighter than mine so maybe that also contributes to limiting roll. I'd be surprised if mine was less than 3400 lbs.

Thanks.

245/40-17's.

We are 2,750 with driver and half tank of gas. We have hacked nearly everything away. As in, our doors are nothing but skins. We've cut off 2 of the bed brackets, popped holes all over the bed, Lexan rear window, no HVAC, nothing. If it's on the truck, it better serve at least two purposes.