Front end rebuild. Need info on TBJ, ZQ8 shock alternatives (QA1?) and Brakes!

Hi,

Long time s-series owner here, got my first one back in 1998, and now on my 5th one. Current truck is a 2000 Sonoma regular cab stepside, ZQ8 with 2.2 and 5spd. The truck has really low miles for its age, 96k currently, but I think it’s time to refresh the front end. Currently if I reverse the truck from a stop with the wheel cut all the way one way or the other I get clicking/popping noises. I figure this may be worn out control arm bushings or maybe ball joints? What do you guys think? The truck came from Michigan and was there its first 14 years of life and did 87k miles there, the underside has some light rust, nothing severe but I’m sure the harsh climate could have adversely affected the rubber bushings.

Now to start off I should add that I once had a brand new zq8 truck in 2003 and was always amazed at how well it handled (for a truck). I doubt I will ever do any autocrossing in this truck so stock zq8 is/was good enough for me. This current truck still handles pretty damn good for being 16 years old and having almost 100k on it but that being said I’m sure it’s time for at least some new shocks. And I might as well replace all the front end bushings and ball joints while I’m there, especially if they’re the culprit for the clicking/popping noise.

I began looking at the replacement shocks and was shocked (pun intended) to see that OEM zq8 bilsteins range from $145-$172 EACH on amazon (with price fluctuations). That got me wondering… Why spend $300 on just shocks when I could upgrade to QA1 coilovers for only $200 above that. So I started reading up on the QA1s… appears the highest 550# spring that offer is not that aggressive, however it will be perfectly fine for my 2.2 liter truck as long as it stays a 2.2l (we’ll talk V8 later), 500# may be even better from what I read but what's confusing is that the stock rate is 585#? how does the rate on the QA1 design differ from stock ratings?

Am I really gaining much from switching to the QA1s? I don’t really care much about ride height. I’ll be happy with a the stock 1.5” zq8 drop, but wouldn’t mind if it came down and a couple more inches. Though being a daily driver, a 4" front drop would be as far as I would ever take it. Are there shocks out there that handle as well as the OEM ZQ8 bilsteins that can be had for less than $300 a pair? If I can get good shocks for cheaper that may discourage me from going the QA1 route.

Next up I’ve been reading about the tall ball joint swaps. Corrects bump steer, lowers truck ½”, sounds great to me…. except I have to switch to tubular upper control arms. I then read about UB machine uppers, and being specifically designed by an s series enthusiast (nice!) and being dirt cheap... but then I also read up about them being steel on steel and needing constant greasing. This is something I’m not willing to do, I don’t have time to be greasing my front end every month. Spohn tubular uppers look great.. but do I really want to spend $300 on them? Are there any other control arm options for the tall ball joint swap that won’t need to be greased all the time?

Next up is a question on brakes. I read up about the C5 upgrades for the front. This is something I’d be interested in doing (after having one vehicle with upgraded big brakes, a 20th anniv GTI, I’ve always been a big fan of brake upgrades.) I read that there are more options when using 98+ Blazer sealed hub spindles when it comes to brake swaps. But the one issue is that drop spindles for the sealed hub applications cost a lot more. Can those brake upgrades be done with the stock 98+ blazer spindles? Also is it any cheaper doing it with the blazer spindles than regular S10 spindles? Basically what are the pros and cons of each setup when it comes to the 12.8” C5 brakes?Lastly, do stock 2000 16” Zq8 wheels fit over those brakes, or do I need to upgrade to 17”s?

All of this should also factor in that I would like to keep the option open to upgrade to a V8 in the future when I cease using this as a daily driver. or when this 2.2l eventually dies (it is leaking or possibly burning a quart each oil change).

Price is somewhat of an issue. I have the money, and can save money towards this project, but at the same time I don't want to be dumping 2-3k worth of brakes/suspension into a truck that's only worth 3k. I have plenty of other projects I'm juggling too where the money can go, a 60 corvair with altered wheel base and a 62 2 door falcon wagon that is a full blown project.

Thanks for the help guys, and thanks for reading this essay.

Hey, figured I'd just answer your PM question here. The main benefit of the QA1's are adjustability and being able to set ride height. From a handling perspective they're no better than a spring and shock setup. If you do go with QA1's, I wouldn't be scared to run a heavier spring. Ignore anything QA1 tech help tells you about S10's and spring rates, they have zero idea what they're talking about and will have you pissing away money on spring swaps. I think a 500 or 550 would still give a reasonably soft ride on a 4 cyl truck. I have 550's with a bunch of weight cut from the front of my truck and they're still a bit soft for a proper handling application. I could easily slam the wheels up into the fenders if I wanted to drop it more as well so ride height shouldn't be an issue.

If you're not worried about tinkering with adjustments or ride height I would just go with a mild drop spring and good quality shocks. Check some of the threads here on the different versions of the Bilsteins - I think the ZQ8 blazer versions may have better valving for a handling application.

The tall ball joint swap is totally worth the price, it improves everything about handling without any down sides. Search for info on the Speedway UCAs, I think you can get them with poly bushings and they're just as cheap as the UB Machine ones (customer service is better too). My UB Machine arms have held up well but they're starting to get a bit worn now. There aren't many big benefits from expensive UCAs.

I run C5 brakes on stock 2wd blazer spindles. You can get the adapter brackets from Kore3. 16" wheels won't clear the 13" rotors - I'd go with a stock LS1 f-body brake conversion on regular S10 spindles (you can't run them on the blazer spindles if I remember correctly) if you want to keep 16" wheels. That's a strong setup and with a good pad set should be comparable to the C5's and you can get the brackets from Kore3 or flynbye (if he ever answers emails).

I'm really happy with the setup I have on my Hombre for street performance. It rides nice for having heavy wheels on all 4 corners and is plenty of fun on the street. The truck has a full ZQ8 setup with some bolt on suspension upgrades.

For the front suspension I did:

• Factory rubber bushings in the factory control arms
• ZQ8 Bumpstops (15956547)
• ZQ8 springs
• ZQ8 bilstein shocks (I got them before the price jumped too much)
• Tall lower Ball joint
• Offset cross shaft from Moog (K6218)
• 2006 2WD F150 Sway Bar End Links
• Moog Sway Bar Bushings (K6476)
• Mildly Aggressive Alignment (-1* Camber, 5.5* Caster, 1/16" Toe in)

I also replaced the entire steering linkage as it had seen better days.

For shocks the ZQ8 Bilsteins, even though expensive, aren't a terrible choice. At the same time, as rentedmule points out, there are other options out there. I also suggest a factory style spring + shock over the coil over setups. Especially if cost is an issue. To really take advantage of a coil over on our trucks the misalignment between the spring pocket and shock angle needs to be corrected. I believe both rentedmule and I have had issues like crooked springs or premature failure of the shocks because of that misalignment. Optimally I'd remove the spring pocket, smooth out the frame, and add in a coil over mount, but many of us aren't working in optimal environments due to time, cost, or skill.

I'm off to a meeting, but have some more thoughts.  I'll post up more later.

http://www.pro-tourings10.com/index.php?topic=2412

Some great options and discussion on shocks in that thread. I forgot about the Blazer Xtreme shocks earlier, but those will save you some money and stiffen up the shocks.

I'm not sure I would switch to Blazer spindles to run any of the bigger brake packages. There are adapters for the S10 spindles too and S10 drop spindles and bearings are far cheaper than the Blazer. On the downside you do have to get rotors turned down into a hub or buy hubs ready-made without the rotor.

Rentedmule, why did you go with Blazer spindles for your swap?

If you are willing to go with Blazer spindles, the obvious option is to run the dual piston Blazer calipers too.  Rotor is only 11", but the stopping power is good. I have that setup on both my 91 long bed and my 00 Hombre short bed. I'm quite happy with it for street driving. Plus they clear the stock wheels.

Here were some pros I wrote out on another site to compare the S10 and Blazer spindle/hub setups:

Packed Bearings (S10)
Cheaper
Easier to Find/Buy
Cheaper Drop Spindles

Sealed Hubs (98+ Blazers)
Bigger Brakes (Stock)
Extremely Easy to Replace

Thanks for the answers guys!

I think I will stick with the stock ZQ8 spring then and replace with OEM Bilstein or the ZQ8 Blazer (xtreme) bilstein. Does anyone have that part number for the Blazer one?

Is there a specific part number for the speedway arms? I read something about people using two "rights" what's that all about?

What diameter are the LS1 F-body brakes? Is it a single piston or dual piston? Kore3 best way to get the parts I need? Will I be able to keep my antilock brakes? Are there any issues running these bigger brakes up front with the back stock drums? I would consider swapping in a blazer rear end to get the rear discs, but my understanding is all blazers will have 3.08 or 3.42 ratios correct? My 2.2 5 spd truck has 3.73s and whereas 3.42s would probably boost my freeway mpg up 25mpg+ (currently 22-23) I don't think I could bare having this 2.2 get any slower around town.

If I decide to forgo the drop spindles, would it be a bad idea to cut a 1/4 coil off the stock ZQ8 springs to get it down to a true 2" drop spring? I can't even remember if it's possible to cut that little and align the spring in the pocket? Id like to get the truck down a little bit, like another 1" total by doing a 1/4 coil cut and TBJs, but doing the TBJ and spindles will bring me down 2.5", total of 4" with the stock ZQ8s. I think this looks great, but for a daily driver it means having to slow down for bumps and I'll probably have to get smaller tires for the front (I recall 225/50/16 being the magic number on my old trucks with 4" drops).

AC Dleco 540-65 is the part number for the Blazer Xtreme shocks.  Only $50 on Amazon! Go buy now!

LS1 brakes are 12" if I'm not mistaken. They are a dual piston caliper. ABS should be fine as well as the drums. The right way to do it would be to isntall an adjustable proportioning valve or a set of pedals with a bias bar, but the ratio is close enough. The main advantage with most upgrades from my perspective is the larger rotor and increased pad area.

You could swap the gears/dif between the housings if you wanted to switch to a disc rear end.  The other option would be to space out the discs on a drum rear as the drum rears are slightly narrower.

Cutting a small amount off your spring isn't terrible, but you are right on the fact that it won't be quite as easy to seat anymore.  I'd hold off and get the rest of the suspension work done and decide if you still feel that it is too soft or too high.

quick comment on s10 vs blazer spindles.
I have no data to back this up, but I have a feeling the blazer setup will be stiffer with the bigger bearings, which may or may not be noticeable when you start putting stickier tires on it.
this will directly affect camber and toe compliance

I went with the blazer spindles because the C5 upgrade would be 100% bolt-on and the sealed bearings are supposed to be stronger (in theory).

I used Kore3 because flynbye completely ignored my calls and emails. Tobin at Kore3 was great to deal with, I got brackets and stainless lines from him. I ditched my ABS and run a very aggressive auto-X pad and still have great modulation and predictable lockup (front first), even in cold or wet weather.

The Torsen LSD from a '98+ f-body is a nice cheap upgrade for the rear if you're going to be in there changing gears anyway. 22 mpg is pretty awful for a 2.2 on the highway! I can regularly get 24 with my 4.3 and 3.42 gears.

I think you do need 2 right side speedway arms. There's a bunch of threads on S10f in the handling section that should have part numbers, I don't know them off hand.

I should clarify that my 550 lb QA1s are not horrible for handling. The truck can still rail around a turn but with wide slicks, a sticky concrete runway, and hard transitions, I still get body roll - the combination of spring rate and swaybar just isn't enough to keep it flat with really high cornering loads.

Harley THANKS for the blazer zq8 bilstein shock heads up! I just bought 1... yes 1 lol they only had 1 in stock at $47. Third party is $70+ but it says amazon has more on the way so I'll wait. (edit, it let me buy another one at $47 now, just have to wait a month for it to ship).

What about rear blazer xtreme/zq8 bilstein shocks, any advantage to using those over the S10 Zq8 shocks or are they totally different? I already got the rear S10 zq8 bilsteins off amazon but there are free returns. The s10 ones were $85, and had been sitting as high as $100 on amazon.

I can believe the S10 front bilsteins are $155 and blazers were $47.... that's wacky.

OK I do like the sound of of the C5 brakes bolting onto the blazer spindles... but what exactly isn't bolt on if I go with the s10 spindle? is it just the fact that the brake rotor needs to be turned down into a hub? or are there other modifications that need to be done?

What is the advantage to using the F150 sway bar endlinks?

As far as the speedway arms go, I see there is a moly and steel version. I guess I want the steel for a daily driver street driven truck so they don't bend? I see some grease fittings on these, are there bushings inside or is it steel on steel like UB machine arms?

In reality the blazer drop spindles are only $125 more than s10 drop spindles. But I will have to find some of the sealed hubs from the junkyard, or are those available new at a reasonable price? do those sealed hubs go bad? I'm sure most of the blazers I'm going to find in a junkyard in 2016 are going to have 120k plus miles on them.

It seems to me the blazer spindles are good swap if I just wanted the dual piston blazer setup, but if I'm swapping to different calipers it may just be more money/hassle than it's worth?

Also since I'm going to be pulling apart this whole front end, is now the time to do new tie rods and centerlink? or safe to reuse the stock stuff if still in good condition (currently 96k miles). If it's not too expensive I would consider just doing it now while it's all apart. I'll be doing the new shocks, TBJ, tubular UCA, new bushings in LCA, new endlinks and bushings for factory ZQ8 sway.

Rentedmule as for gas mileage, I live in CA, we have crap oxygenated gas that gives less mpg. When I drive out of state my mileage always goes up. I also average 75-80mph on the freeway. For comparison sakes the best freeway mileage I ever got on a 96+ 4.3/auto truck was 18mpg, so the 23mpg out of the unmodified 2.2 that is approaching 100k on stock ignition and other components ain't too shabby. To be honest... I'd rather have the 4.3 and 5 less mpg since gas is so cheap these days. Trying to find a regular cab ZQ8 4.3 5 spd truck is not that easy though, nearly all of them are 4.3/auto. Also trying to find an s-series truck that isn't beat to shit these days is pretty difficult in itself. I was very lucky to find this 2000 zq8 sonoma last year with only 87k miles in great shape, that's why I settled for the 2.2.

Again thanks for all the input!

I will add that I have personally had great customer service from Kore3 as well the few times I've talked with them.

Part numbers I have for rear Z87 Shocks:15056364 or AC Delco 540-66

I didn't look up any prices, but Amazon and eBay are always on my list for these parts. I don't know how they compare to the ZQ8 shocks in stroke length or compression rate.

I wouldn't spend money on junkyard bearings again. I've bought a few in my quests for Blazer spindle swaps and they've never lasted more than a few thousand miles if that.

I've gotten many NOS hubs off eBay for my trucks. 15731627 or AC Delco FW155 are the part numbers to look for. Best price I've seen lately is $90-100 shipped. Stick with OEM, Delco, or Timken if you want to see any life out of the bearings.

F150 links use a ball joint on one end, which stiffens up the link (less buahing) and also adds a joint where many of us have experienced bent end links. It's about the same length as the stock end link. Rentedmule could go into more detail with his setup, but at lower ride Heights there does seem to be an improvement to shortening the end link. I'm the first that I know to run the F150 links, but any lower and there could be advantages to shortening it.

At 100k I'd place money that your steering linkage has play. I've been a big fan of Proforged parts. They have a great warranty and great customer service, but on the pricy end. I've had to replace a few things for some oddball situations, but they've always come through. At least replace the Idler arm and closely inspect the other joints for slop.

Speaking of steering slop, it will be helpful to replace the steering shaft rag joint with a u joint. Many have done the flaming rivers, but greencactus found an eBay equivalent for significantly less.

See this thread here:
http://www.pro-tourings10.com/index.php?topic=1223.msg11476#msg11476

I rebuilt the front suspension on my '97 ZQ8 a little over a year ago. I used:

Moog lower control arms
Proforged tall upper and lower ball joints
Spohn UCAs with delrin bushings (designed for tall spindles)
Dorman 31064 bump stops
Moog 5658 springs
Bilstein 24-187428 Shocks ($70 each and have stiffer valving than oem shocks)
All Moog Steering components

It handles good and rides decent. The ride would be better if I didn't have polyurethane body mounts. My truck also has Belltech 2102 spindles with C5 brakes. My original plan was to mod the s10 drop spindles for LS1 brakes, but after I found out how easy it was do Vette brakes on the Blazer spindles I went that route. Yes it was more expensive, but at the time I had the extra money for it. C5 brakes require 17" wheels though. If you plan on keeping the stock wheels you'll have to do the 12" LS1 brakes on s10 spindles.

Thanks for the input. Looks like those blazer hubs are expensive new! $230+ everywhere. I did find one on ebay for $100 so I guess they can be found for around $200 a pair with some hunting. So adding in the extra $125 for blazer drop spindles and new hubs, its $325 extra than going the S10 drop spindle route.

I'm going to hold off on the brake upgrades for now as C5 will require new wheels/tires and those with the brakes are easily going to exceed $2500. I'll probably buy S10 drop spindles, at least they are easy to resell if I do decide to go blazer spindles with future brake upgrades.

Last 3 questions...

1. Do the speedway arms have bushings in them? I dont want to have to be greasing steel on steel every few weeks which I read needs to be done with the UB machine arms. I'm looking for ease of maintenance here, I don't want to have to grease things on a monthly basis cause I know it wont get done.

2. And if I do go with the Spohn UCA, the tall spindle version is the one I want? Basically are the tall lower and upper ball joints simply mimicking a tall spindle?

3. And I searched part numbers for brake rotor replacements between 2000 s10s and blazers and it appears S10 rotor is 10.5" and blazer rotor is 10.75".  Seems like a negligible difference in rotor size, is the dual piston caliper giving that much better stopping power? I figure the blazer pad size is going to be not much bigger than s10 pads given the similar sized rotors. Basically would it be worth spending an extra $425 on hubs, calipers and more expensive blazer drop spindles just to switch to the blazer brakes?

Ended up going with the blazer xtreme front shocks Delco 540-66, were only $47 prime free shipping on Amazon. Rear s10 zq8 shocks were $85 on Amazon, felt that was a bit pricey but didn't want to try blazer xtreme rear shocks on a reg cab pick up truck with no weight in the back.

I doubt those will be your last 3 questions 

#3: You're right, rotors aren't that big of difference in size, but the extra pistons for whatever reason have left a good impression on me. Could be more piston area (i don't know the specs), better force distribution on the pad, being smaller pistons they can be out further on the disc, etc.  For whatever reason GM engineered the second system for the heavier SUVs.

Funny story about the Spohn UCAs. I actually ordered the ones for the tall spindles by accident and didn't even realize it. Later on I contacted Spohn and they said as long as the ball joints aren't binding you're good to go. The ones I have are 1" shorter than the standard arms they sell. It's to accommodate the 2" taller B-body spindle. But with tall upper and lower ball joints, it's basically like having a 1" taller spindle. So either one will work, but with the shorter arms I have it's easier to get more camber with less shims (even though my shim stack is still maxed out).

I got both of my Blazer hubs off of ebay for $78 shipped. They're made in the USA as well with a one year warranty. I've had them for a little over two years and they're still tight. Even though the Blazer rotors are only slightly larger in diameter, the caliper size is much larger so it'll make a noticeable improvement in braking. Before I did C5 brakes I had the standard Blazer brakes. I was happy with how they stopped, I just wanted larger brake to fill up the wheel more. Here's a pic I found on Google comparing the size of the two:

Thanks for the picture, I can definitely tell its quite a bit bigger, just wish they had taken the picture of the calipers in line with each other so you could see the true size difference, the blazer one is clearly closer to the camera.

So seems like the blazer swap may be the best option for a truck that is largely only going to be used for street driving and wont see much, if any, autocross. Also going with the blazer spindles will allow me to bolt on the C5 brakes later on down the road if I decide to take it further.

Is it worth salvaging rotors and calipers off a junkyard blazer? or just buy them new. Seems like we've already ruled out buying used hubs as most of the time they're worn out at 120k+ miles which is what all these 98-04 blazers typically have in the junkyards.

Do the brake hoses change? what are the exact parts I'll need for the swap, anything other than below?

Blazer drop spindles (belltech 2102)
New hubs (15731627 or AC Delco FW155)
Rotors (part numbers?)
Calipers (part numbers? are they two pieces or just 1?)
New hoses? (part numbers? worth getting stainless?)
Any other parts (part numbers?) needed?

Thanks
Blake

I've used junkyard parts for all of mine. I just replaced the piston seals and hardware. It's a good opportunity to have the parts sand blasted and painted your favorite color. Leave in the original seals to protect the piston bore and replace them once painted.

Seal kit is 18029813 or AC Delco 173-291.  They've been discontinued, but I've found them a few places including eBay. vpartsinc.com has 300 sets available too.  You'll need 2 sets of seals, 1 for each caliper.

Caliper is a 2 piece.  There's the caliper and there's a caliper bracket that the slide pins bolt to.

For rotors I've bought my favorite aftermarket of the moment. If you find a decent set at the yard it might be worth resurfacing them.

Hoses and brake lines are actually different up front between the S10 and Blazers. They even use different brackets to hold the end of the hardline and hose. The S10 hoses are angled forward, but the Blazer's point down.  Can't just swap the hardlines either as the Blazer is about an inch taller.

It isn't a perfect description, but I talk about it in my Isuzu thread: http://www.pro-tourings10.com/index.php?topic=1223.msg12177#msg12177

I've both cut and reflared the Blazer lines to fit and rebent the S10 lines to fit the brackets.  I feel fairly confident in flaring brake lines, but I know it isn't for everyone. With a tube bending tool the bending isn't so bad, but old lines can be brittle. I've also used the S10 lines and hoses as is, but from my memory the hoses will rest on the caliper driving straight down the road.

My suggestion is grab the Blazer brackets with the rest of the brakes at the yard, but mock it up on your truck without any changes and see what you think.

OEM hoses are discontinued. You can buy Dorman, etc, but I'd lean toward stainless myself at this point.

I'd prefer to not have to install new lines and flare them, can you describe where the stock s10 hose needs to be bent and reorientated?

Will something like this do the trick?
http://www.amazon.com/ABN-Tubing-Forming-Bending-Bender/dp/B018UP2608/

Also in your link you said the blazer hardline is bigger, do you mean in diameter? Any issues using a smaller diameter s10 line with brakes that were designed for a bigger diameter?

It looks like duralast calipers are around $72 at autozone including the core charge. The seal kits are $15/ea so $30 a side, not sure what a junk yard will charge me for the calipers. I don't really care about calipers being painted so if those the question is, is it better to rebuild the OEM calipers with new seals, or are those duralast ones good enough? Also how hard is it to install those new seals? any special tools or experience needed?

there is no guarentee that a junkyard caliper is OE, I've had good luck with rebuilt autozone calipers so far, but bad luck with rebuilt master cylinders for whatever reason.

swapping seals is super easy. all you need is fresh brake fluid and a skinny pick. dental picks work great. oh and a tank of air helps to pop the piston out of the caliper too, but you can use the brake pedal on the truck to do that as well. (use a piece of wood to catch the piston before it falls out, you don't want to get scratches on the piston)
I recommend soaking the new square seals (not the dust seals) in fresh brake fluid overnight before sticking them in the caliper.

http://www.u-pullandsave.com/price_list.cfm

here's my local favorite yard prices. if you aren't pulling it yourself, it might cost a bit more.

hardline diameter changes won't be a big deal. I'm not sure exactly how the OE decides what sizes to run, but from a flow perspective, 3/16" should be plenty for most brake setups.

Well buying them from autozone will cost me $72 each, whereas buying them from my local LKQ pick your part is $28.61 for dual piston caliper, and then $8.16 for the caliper holder (I'm assuming this is the bracket part). Add in $30 of new seals and it's $67 to pull a junkyard one and rebuild vs buying a re manufactured one for $72. Looks like I'll just go with the autozone one in that case and save the hassle.

Still curious on how the S10 brake line position or bracket needs to be modified.

And I can't use blazer rubber or strainless lines, I'll need to get the S10 ones? Will those actually connect to the blazer calipers or do I need an adapter fitting?

oh and a tank of air helps to pop the piston out of the caliper too, but you can use the brake pedal on the truck to do that as well.

On my 'vette calipers I even managed to do it with a bicycle pump and one of those cone adapters used for blowing up air mattresses.