Speedway control arms and general suspension questions

First off, i drive an '87 blazer with a '92 4.3L, so nothing out of the ordinary as far as mods or power goes. i will have a 5inch drop up front, incase that matters (4" for now until i get my 3" coils) Not sure on brand of spindles, stock lower control arms. Need anything else to answer my questions, feel free to ask!

A friend of mine told me to look into Speedway control arms, and that the protouring forums had lots of info. Unfortunately, i'm pretty stupid when it comes to suspension parts so i thought i'd ask for some help. From what i've read, i'll need two right oval track arms?
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Chrome-Moly-Upper-Control-Arm,4853.html Is this correct?

Also, are there any affordable tubular lowers (for coils)

And if i decided to go the QA1 route, could someone possibly link me to a descriptive how-to or link to parts needed to do the swap up front? Thanks!



Sorry about the mass of questions, and thank you ahead of time for helping me out! This forum is full of knowledge and i'm already overwhelmed with new ideas.

Oh, and here's the reason i'm doing this.

I have to advise right up front *against* 3" coils. It will hurt your camber gain, it will limit front travel severely and in being higher, will put you into a worse section of bump-steer. If you're doing this just for looks, ok. I will never stop someone from doing something that they want to, but you should at least be aware of what it's going to do to you first.

As for the control arms, I would very highly suggest getting steel cross shafts for a street vehicle. The circle track guys like the aluminum cross shafts because if they hit something they will bend instead of breaking, so they're less likely to die, lol. On the street though, you will want they extra strength so your cross shaft doesn't bend when you accidentally don't miss a pot hole or curb.

Finally, the stock LCAs are going to be just fine for 95% of S10s. another 4% can be soaked up with a set of modified stock LCAs. The last 1% is half bagged guys that need the clearance and half race trucks. A set of LCAs can be gotten from a junk yard for very cheap if you are willing to pull them yourself and a set of moog bushings, a new ball joint and a coat of paint and the arms themselves will outlast just about any other part of the truck.

Zach, I just wanted to back up what artos said about the coils. It's your choice but you are really going to sacrifice ride quality. I bought some 1.4" lowering coils last summer which turned out to be more like a 2.5" drop. I can't stand them. The bump steer is scary dangerous on the highway. If I'm doing 120+ the bump steer literally throws the truck around and if I don't change them it will definitely cause me to get in an accident. The slightest bump causes it to just jump in another direction. If you are dead set on the drop you want I would budget for a bump steer kit as well then.

so my unanswered question stands, would i be able to achieve a 3" drop ontop of my spindles with QA1 coilovers? how are they mounted?



i don't intend to race this truck or anything, and i want it to sit low, but i DO drive it EVERY day so ride quality is somewhat of a concern. if coilovers is what i have to do, lets git'r done

the speedway arms will work, but the other eccomendation i have for you is the UB machine arms for the tall ball joint conversion. will help to get some of your suspension geometry back with 3 inch coils (and are designed to work with up to 4 inch coils).

the 3 inch coils i had sucked pretty bad. i didnt have the bumpsteer problems as bad, but then again i had some alignment band aids in place.

coilovers will get you down 3 inches in front. what i would suggest though, for that ride height, would be a set of ART shockwaves. if youre set on coil overs, QA1 sells a set for the 80's montecarlo that will work just fine on our trucks. go with about 450 lb/in coil for the iron v6.

what is your goal out of this thing other than really low?

Michael

Regardless of how you do it, 3" of drop between the LCA and the frame is a bad idea IMHO. The only thing that would be different between a coil over and just a drop spring would the adjustable ride height.

Plan on a bumpsteer kit or custom tie rods if you need it that low.

You can get a half inch drop out of lower ball joints and improve geometry. It's not the full inch you want, but it's better than nothing and it'll actually make things better instead of worse.

Like Artos said with a stock frame and stock LCA a 3" drop has a lot of downsides.  Even with the Air Ride Technologies Strong Arms designed for shockwaves a 3"+ drop with coil overs can have downsides, but that may be tuned out with geometry, spring, and shock changes.  All of that is beyond me at this point, so I can't really comment on what can be done.  I ran about 4-5" of drop with the Strong Arm/Coil over conversion for several years, but I'm back up to around 3" now.  It handles and looks great at both heights and I'm taller than you being a 2nd gen Blazer too.  Definitely feel the bumpsteer though.

I guess since it is the main concern we may as well touch on the problems with S10 steering. The inner tie rods are located inboard of the LCA mounts, this means that your tie rod is longer than your LCA, which will cause toe out in bump at most of the ride heights on here. The second issue is the height of the steering arm on the spindle, it is just too low. It worked ok on the G-bodes because of how the steering was arranged, but it was still not good, it is about twice as bad on the S10s by my numbers. So what we're left with is steering that will toe out in bump and turn in roll, so if you're going around a corner and hit a bump, you've got a damn good chance of losing it.

In theory, to fix these issues, you have to start with the suspension, because as you change the geometry, you change how much needs to be fixed. A tall lower ball joint essentially makes the spindle taller at the bottom, which puts the steering arm up right near where it should have been in relation to the LCA. It's actually still off about 1/8" but that is a LOT closer. Now you no longer have the truck turning in roll or in one wheel bump or droop. The secondary problem of the tie rods being too long, there just is no fix for on our trucks, sorry. There is a fix on G-bodies from AFCO in the form of a new centerlink, but they have not made one and probably never will for our trucks. If you wanted you could buy one of the AFCO's and cut it up to take the chunk out of the center, but I think that's just a bad idea all around. Once I have my custom tie rods in, I might look at having a custom center link made, but don't hold your breath, it's not going to be soon, lol.

Like i said, i'm willing to go to tubular LCA if it improves LCA to frame clearance. I want it really low but cornering is fun too. If you guys are saying theres really no way to make 3" suspension drop up front work out, then i might just stick to 2" coils and tall lower ball joints (which is what you're suggesting, correct?)

Do you have a link to the strong arm coil conversion? i'm not dead set on anything, i was just under the impression that coilovers would handle better and have a more solid feel.



Let's change this thread/question around. Forget about anything i already own except drop spindles and let's say i'm starting from stock coils and 2" spindles.

I want to acheive a 4 or 5" drop up front, yet still handle well. I intend to drive the shit out of it, but only to the vehicle's limit. How does this list of parts sound? Please simply quote the parts list, and anything you disagree with, change and bold (links appreciated)

Front:
-2" drop spindles
-Tall Lower balljoints
-Hellwig 1.25" Swaybar http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HEL-7509/
-Global West tubular LCA's http://www.summitracing.com/parts/GLS-CTA-22LP/
-DJM 2" coils
-DJM drop shocks
-Please suggest the best tubular UCA's for a reasonable price

Rear:
-3" belltech leafs
-1" to 2" steel block (i know it's not recommended, but i want low)
-1" belltech swaybar kit
-28" lakewood traction bars

Steering:
-close ratio steering box, what kind?
-Moog inner/outer tie-rods and adjusting sleeves
-new centre link, idler arm and pitman arm. Does Moog make these?

I will be running 205/65/15 up front and 275/50/15's in the rear. If i go to a 17" rim, what tire sizes do you recommend?


Thanks once again for all the help, like i've said, i'm pretty clueless when it comes to suspension and steering.

Here is a link to a post I made earlier this year on coilovers.  There are links to a couple other threads on BlazinLow with good discussion on the topic.

http://www.blazinlow.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77197

Lots of various pictures of my truck with the setup here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/theharley/sets/72057594055437047/

The biggest advantage with the so called coil over conversion is ride height adjustment.  Most of the the other benefits can be had with custom springs and adjustable shocks that fit the stock mounting provisions.


Here is what I would do coil overs aside

Front:
-2" drop spindles
-Tall Lower balljoints
-2nd gen Blazer Sway Bar which is the same part number as the ZQ8/xtreme S10s.  It is 33mm which is just a hair smaller than 1.3in.  OEM part and can be had for under $40 easy.  IMO much better than the Helwig.
-Modify the lower control arms like Artos suggested.  I donÂ’t see any reason to get a tubular lower control arm with a spring perch.  They donÂ’t look any better or weigh much less than modified stock arms and rob good money from more important parts.
-DJM 2" coils.
-Spend the money saved on good single adjustable shocks
-UB machine uppers with a tall upper ball joint

Rear:
-xtreme/zq8 rear leaves for a  1.5” drop.  Beltech are real soft from what I have heard and get worse as they age
-2" steel block (i know it's not recommended, but i want low)
-Again use a stock rear sway bar from a ZQ8 or 2nd gen Blazer.  Big money saved for near the same handling.   Either a truck or SUV bar will require some fab work IÂ’m guessing, but worth it.
-28" lakewood traction bars

Steering:
-close ratio steering box, what kind?
-Moog inner/outer tie-rods and adjusting sleeves. Also check out Power Performance.  TheyÂ’ve gotten good reviews in the S10 community.  Shop around some, but the best prices IÂ’ve found have been directly from their website.
-new centre link, idler arm and pitman arm. Does Moog make these? Again another option is Power Performance

-DJM 2" coils.
-Spend the money saved on good single adjustable shocks
adjustable shocks, would that not just change ride quality, or do you mean go the coilover route?

Rear:
-xtreme/zq8 rear leaves for a  1.5” drop.  Beltech are real soft from what I have heard and get worse as they age
i already own the belltech leaves so i'll see how they ride before spending more on zq8


-Again use a stock rear sway bar from a ZQ8 or 2nd gen Blazer.  Big money saved for near the same handling.   Either a truck or SUV bar will require some fab work IÂ’m guessing, but worth it.i've read up a bit on the rear bar from a second gen, but i've heard the mounts will be a bitch. i think i'll go aftermarket on this one, but i'll read up some more first



i'll definitely go zq8 front, since i think even dealer is cheaper than aftermarket. it's 1mm thicker too

i mainly want to get tubular lowers for clearance and looks, i just posted the globalwest as an idea if i stayed coil. i think i'll go the coilover route..

whats the advantage of a tall upper balljoint? wouldn't that push it even higher from stock?

did a bunch more reading and understand a lot more, but i still have a billion questions. i'm texting Norcal (tony) so hopefully i can get a bunch answered. ideally i'd want my ride height adjustable between 4 and 6", if thats a small enough range? i'd like a stiff ride while being fairly low.

when they say compression/rebound rate, whats stiffer, a higher number (6) or a lower number (3)

and to add to the list, what length control arm would i need from UB? are they any better than speedway, besides the cross-shafts?

-DJM 2" coils.
-Spend the money saved on good single adjustable shocks
adjustable shocks, would that not just change ride quality, or do you mean go the coilover route?

Yes adjustable shocks will just change the characteristics of the shocks. It will not change ride height. I believe that what Harley is suggesting, 2" drop coils and adjustable shocks.


-Again use a stock rear sway bar from a ZQ8 or 2nd gen Blazer.  Big money saved for near the same handling.   Either a truck or SUV bar will require some fab work IÂ’m guessing, but worth it.i've read up a bit on the rear bar from a second gen, but i've heard the mounts will be a bitch. i think i'll go aftermarket on this one, but i'll read up some more first

I was contemplating going with the hellwig bar but I really didn't like the way it mounted under the bed. The zq8 rear bar is going to perform very well and at 1/4 of the cost. My suggestion would be the latter.


i'll definitely go zq8 front, since i think even dealer is cheaper than aftermarket. it's 1mm thicker too

i mainly want to get tubular lowers for clearance and looks, i just posted the globalwest as an idea if i stayed coil. i think i'll go the coilover route..

whats the advantage of a tall upper balljoint? wouldn't that push it even higher from stock?

The tall ubj will provide a slight drop as mentioned above. It's something like 1/4"- 1/2" The benefit of a tall upper is it provides a slight improvement in suspension geometry.

did a bunch more reading and understand a lot more, but i still have a billion questions. i'm texting Norcal (tony) so hopefully i can get a bunch answered. ideally i'd want my ride height adjustable between 4 and 6", if thats a small enough range? i'd like a stiff ride while being fairly low.

when they say compression/rebound rate, whats stiffer, a higher number (6) or a lower number (3)

Compression and rebound are two different things. It's kind of hard to say to describe these actions as stiff* Changing the settings is just going to affect the action of the shocks. If you went with coilovers it would be coil choice you make that would be more described in terms of stiffness.

and to add to the list, what length control arm would i need from UB? are they any better than speedway, besides the cross-shafts?

Duster is definitely the guy to ask about this. I remember reading his build thread a while back and I'm fairly sure he was the one who designed them. I think these would be the ones you want - http://www.ubmachine.com/uppermetric.html

again definitely shoot duster a pm first.


At this point it seems like you are a little unsure what route you want to go. If you are looking for a 3" drop on top of your 2" spindles I would advise you to just go with coils and see how you like it. I say this because it's cheap, $75.
The issues with a 5" drop up front are severe bump steer, wheels hitting the inner fenders on just the slightest bumps, potentially bottoming out the lower control arm on the frame and just a poor ride all around. If it's just the drop that is the most important thing you are after it's not really going to matter if you get coil overs and tubular upper and lowers with double adjustable shocks. You'll just spend $500-$750 more and still have these bad characteristics.  
  

The tall LBJ gives the suspension lowering effect, similaly to a drop spindle, so a better drop than adding spring drop as well as increasing camber gain and helping a lot with bump steer. The only real option I can find for a tall LBJ is the Power Performance. Howe also makes them as does QA1, but both are designed for track use only, and are the same price or more expensive than the PP.

The tall UBJ just helps with camber gain.

The tubular upper arm mainly helps with the angle of the ball joint plate and with getting an alignment easier. When you install tall ball joints you don't need as long of a UCA, so it requires more shims to get the camber set right. A shorter UCA means fewer shims. The UB arm is 8.25 or 8.375 I think. The Speedway is right at 8". *IMHO* the 8" length would be better for a drop over 4.5". There are speedway arms available with steel cross shafts also, so that is not a functional difference between the two, you just have to find the right ones on their site. The chromoly arms with steel shafts are actually $50 now at speedway.

The global west LCAs actually won't help with clearance on the frame, not from what I've seen, however they do come with a 1" isolator, so you can adjust your ride height as you see fit.

With a shock there are actually four valves. Slow compression, slow rebound, fast compression and fast rebound. Depending on who you ask there are many different opinions on the relation between fast and slow, I happen to like Bilstein and Varishocks method of digressive valving. Either which way you like it though, the shocks just limit the speed of movement. For every application I've seen the higher number is slower valving.

Literally the *ONLY* advantage of coil overs versus a regualr 5.5" diameter coil and a shock is the adjustable ride height, which can help you get the vehicle level and balance the corner weights. This can be achieved with weight jacks(would be a PITA on a street car) or adjustable shock shims, which speedway also offers.

You can get 4.5" of total drop on the front just with spindles, springs and the tall LBJ, which is a lot on these trucks. At 6" I'm betting you run into tie rod clearance, as well as bottoming issues. It's your truck though.

You can get 4.5" of total drop on the front just with spindles, springs and the tall LBJ, which is a lot on these trucks. At 6" I'm betting you run into tie rod clearance, as well as bottoming issues. It's your truck though.

Now that Artos mentions it, at a ~5" drop, on my 2nd gen Blazer, the tie rods were hitting/rubbing the frame somewhat regularly.

Honestly I would go with the 4.5" Artos described if you don't go coil overs.  I would also stay away from aftermarket/tubular lower control arms unless you go with coil overs.  Other than a different look there is no advantage.

If I were to do it again, today, I would be hard pressed to choose the coil overs over a stock diameter spring and stock style adjustable shock.  To get the LCAs and Coil Overs you're looking at dropping a grand and you still haven't bought tall ball joints, spindles, tubular upper, etc, which will help handling as much or more than the LCA/Coil Over.  I bet that grand could buy all the rest and more while putting you further ahead in handling.  If then you want more adjustability the springs/shocks can be sold as a package without much loss and replaced with the coil overs easily.

I'm going to go with tubular uppers because a stock arm in shit shape from the scrap yard is $55, so for $100 i can replace both. From taking all of your advice, here are my plans. And btw, i can pick up 3" coils for $20 from a friend.


-Chromoly UCA, steel cross shaft, 8" (speedway)
-Power Performance Tall Upper/Lower balljoints
-3" drop coils
-de-humped stock LCA (sandblasted and painted, possibly new bushings)
-tie-rod notch (not a simple tube like bagged trucks, more of a box)
-power performance tie-rod assembly excluding pitman arm
-zq8 steering box (used from a friend)
-second gen front swaybar (which is same as first gen zq8, correct?)
-second gen rear swaybar
-energy suspension swaybar bushings/links


thanks once again for all of your help guys, i'll order the tubular UCA's and tall balljoints next pay. once i have some spare cash i'll start working on LCA's and order balljoints for them.

I don't know much about a first gen ZQ8, but the second gen ZQ8 and Blazer shared the same bar.  They will both bolt up fine to any year pickup or SUV.  Just need to get the right mounts/bushings.

Most people use a tube or round shaped tierod notch because cutting straight corners in your frame creates stress points that will crack/split easier.

Zach, did you ever order those speedway UCAs?

not yet, i plan on ordering them in a month or two, but i still haven't figured out which ones to order haha